TANK Talk｜Creat Something From Nothing

Hongfei Yue:
Thank you, thank you!
Hello everyone, let me introduce myself first
My name is Robin.
I’m the editor-in-chief of Art World magazine, which is based in Shanghai
Here we are working with the Tank Shanghai Art Center
We have also invited several artists whose works are in Mr. Qiao’s collection
So I’m proud to introduce to you – Analia Saban
whose work is on display at Qiao Space across the street
and Damien Ortega
His work is on display at the top of the stairs in the “live section” of this year’s West Coast Art & Design Fair.
I hope he’ll give a brief introduction later.
So, everyone, please have a seat.
Oscar will be joining us shortly.
So today we’re talking about
“Creat Something From Nothing: Artists Imagine the Future of Art”.
This is not an abstract or theoretical issue
It’s a real question that has become increasingly important and urgent lately
We are asking this question every day
Because many new art museums have emerged in Shanghai
From a physical point of view, they have sprung up from absolutely nothing
We have taken a large piece of land, a beautiful historical building
into cultural institutions in just a few years
But there is no real built-in intellectual legacy
（There’s no understanding of what a museum is.
It’s a dangerous phenomenon. It’s disturbing, but it’s also very exciting.
because I think artists, young curators, will have the opportunity
from the earliest stages
to be involved in the construction of these institutions and spaces
So I’m looking forward to hearing from you in today’s conversation
about your experiences working with some of these institutions
Whether it’s in China or around the world
Also, what do you hope to do with these institutions in the future?
Analia, do you want to talk about your trip this week first?
What did you see? What do they mean to you?

Saban:
Of course, first of all, thank you all very much for coming
I’m honored.
to be able to talk with two artists that I admire and often learn from
Thank you to Robin, Art World and Qiao Space for organizing this event
Wow, we really got a lot done on this trip to Shanghai
I think I’m going to go home and think about it for a few days.
I’ve been thinking about the topic of this conversation since I opened my eyes this morning
I think, when I was in New York.
I always think, oh, how did these galleries start?
It’s really hard to imagine.
Like imagine how the Guggenheim started?
How did the MoMA go up?
And how did the Whitney Museum of American Art start?
Like the beginnings of these very important institutions that took generations to build.
When you’re walking around New York
It’s hard just to imagine (their beginnings)
And then all of a sudden
I was here (in Shanghai) for three days.
In fact, I was witnessing how these large institutions were formed in just a few years
how these large institutions have been formed in just a few years
As an artist, it’s very impressive to me
It’s very inspiring to see something so important in its infancy
It was an honor to work with the Qiao Space team during this trip to Shanghai
to see what kind of vision has created these (institutions)
and the excitement, which I think is very contagious
I’m going home with a vision and hope
After this trip, it was like a rising spark lit up in me
This time we also had an amazing trip to Shaoxing
We studied Chinese industry
In America, it was all so abstract
You know everything is made in China
But you don’t know exactly how it’s made, and it’s hard to imagine it out of thin air
You know it’s industry
Maybe it’s the same as industry in the rest of the world
And to see these factories in reality is really unforgettable
Not only with your eyes, but also with your physical senses
Because the sound and energy in these factories (are very real)
I can say that the trip was fruitful

Ortega:
Hello, first of all, thank you very much for coming and for this invitation
I’m very excited and I feel like a baseball player on this field
Many years ago, I worked in magazines
I drew cartoons and political cartoons for newspapers.
As a cartoonist, my favorite reference is the work of an artist
He was a cartoonist and an oil painter
He drew beautiful landscapes and green fields, only the sky and green fields
(Among others) there is a little baseball player at a baseball camp, looking at the sky
like he’s waiting for something
It’s a beautiful picture.
It’s like he’s waiting for his dog or something.
And then because of your question I thought
What are we expecting from the museum? And what are we waiting for?
Of course, building a brand new space is like a fantasy out of thin air for everyone
It’s also starting a new business and getting new experiences
Because it is always our hope, dream and expectation –
to discover what we want in the future
What the future of art will be
I think about my daughters.
Like what they’ll study, maybe they’ll be artists in the future.
But in a few years, art is going to change dramatically.
I want to answer this question now
Over the years I’ve realized that curators and collectors are actually artists too.
We as artists can plan and decide what we should do
But curators and collectors are also artists, and they can decide which works to choose, which works to show
（They can experiment and follow their own dreams and intuition
In short, what do I expect from artists?
I just expect them to go deeper into their research and believe in themselves
I look forward to seeing them really focus on their interests and grow with them
I expect them to understand, to learn, and to open my senses
That’s my view of art, my answer to the question “What is art?

Yue Hongfei:
Thank you! Welcome Oscar, thank you.
Thank you for coming from Nanjing.
I know you’re busy setting up the exhibition for tomorrow
I know that, unlike Analia or Damian
You’ve also been involved in a number of private and public exhibitions in China
We did a project together at the Mumu Art Museum in 798, Beijing
And now you are involved in a project with Yu Sone (Japanese artist) this week
at the Sifang Art Museum in Nanjing this week.
Can you tell us briefly about your experience?
What are those museums doing that is different from other parts of the world?
Do they resonate with you?
Sorry I’m late, I’ve been thinking about this
I’ve been thinking about it for a while
We had a brief conversation about it about yesterday
I also think it’s a topic we’ve been talking about
It’s probably been a year, or more than a year
We’ve been talking about this topic since Hong Kong
I think it goes beyond art, when I think of the whole world
I don’t think about art.
I think about politics, I think about capitalism.
I’m still thinking about China and Africa
How deeply has China penetrated Africa?
I think in this very ambiguous period
I would like to see more of a cultural connection between Africa and Asia
I wasn’t even thinking about art at all
I’m just thinking about the changes between these two phenomena
China providing the infrastructure for Africa and benefiting from the resources
and how this might point to a more progressive cultural relationship between these two parts of the world
between these two parts of the world and perhaps point to a more progressive cultural relationship
I think, thinking about the Western context and Europe
Clearly Europe is going through a serious cultural crisis right now
European institutions don’t have the funds
So this broadens the “arena” in a sense.
Damian just said that the curator is the artist.
I totally agree with that.
I don’t think there is a given way
So my contribution is to think about
New connections and relationships within Latin America
I think it’s interesting
For Chinese institutions, collectors or private institutions
It’s too easy to go back and forth between the United States and Europe
I think Africa is more challenging, isn’t it? And Latin America.
You know, institutions have always carried the stigma of private ownership
At this level, MoMA is arguably the biggest private gang
There’s always a beginning to everything.
I think maybe China is at that beginning now.
It’s too early to say too much

subtitle2
About two years ago, I think it was about 18 months ago
We had a panel in Hong Kong
where you were talking about the importance of the vast globe outside of the so-called center of the West
It’s built its own social network, its own alliances, and it’s an alliance that’s sustainable from generation to generation
This is, if not a high-profile reversal of the original curatorially-driven model of collecting
It at least provided a new alternative
Have you made any progress on that since then?
Oh, in just 18 months. No, it’s not.
It’s gonna be done in 12 months.
I mean, that’s exactly where we need to be urgently.
It’s very urgent, and this group is full of Latinos
Except for yourself. So, that’s fine.
I could be very offensive, but I don’t think it’s necessary
I think that China is a very critical player and they should take full advantage of that
And not by collecting millions or even more
Not just some sort of residue
but let’s think about how they might play a leading role
Yes, I think that’s the most exciting thing right now
I want to go back to this speculative question
But first I’d like to hear about your personal experience with museums
What did museums mean to you early in your career?
How did you work with curators, institutional collections, the education sector?
And what do you think you need to learn from the Chinese context?
Analia, can you start with that?
Sure. It would be an honor.
Because I work in Los Angeles.
There are wonderful institutions there, very, very good museums
Especially the Hanmo Museum, it’s the kind of museum
As a young artist, you get immersed in it very quickly
And then the Museum of Contemporary Art Los Angeles (MOCA) and the Los Angeles Museum of Art (LACMA)
Once you get to the LACMA, basically, you’re now in a much bigger conversation
Because it’s a Los Angeles County museum
So it’s a museum that collects in a broader way
So I’m very happy that Christine is here.
She’s the curator of LACMA
Because I’m grateful to them.
And because I owe it to those curators that I’m here today.
To put it succinctly, very early on, really early on, out of college
When we weren’t famous at all, and you might only have one artistic friend
But you have to start somewhere.
So you have to start with at least one person
This person is one of the young curators in these institutions
Maybe you come on a big studio tour every six months
But that gives you a lot of motivation and hope to work on it.
Maybe I know
Maybe five years from now, nothing has happened
Because you’re growing, and when you’re 25, you haven’t made your best work
But they stay with you
And then one curator becomes two curators and then three curators
And the curators that we met early on still come
Now we’ve had 12 years of relationships with them.
And it’s really down to them and the way they’ve connected my work to the international context
I have to say
I am personally very grateful to the gallery and business system
The system really works and we work well with the galleries
We work hard together to get closer to those institutions
I mean, that’s what we’re all about.
We do everything we can to get into those institutions
And…I remember the first time I saw my work.
A piece that was hanging in the Los Angeles Museum of Art
And I realized why I was making art.
I said, “Oh, that’s why, I get it.
You know, when I finally…
Because before that, my work was always in galleries
And of course that’s great.
But it was mainly for an audience that was closely associated with art
And then all of a sudden the work was put in the context of a museum
Curated by people who really put the work in context
And then it’s open to the general public.
Like kids and stuff, and then I got it.
It completely changed (my practice of) art.
So that was (my) early relationship with the museum
But it was a very powerful driving force in my daily practice

subtitle 3
Thanks for sharing
Hi. Well yeah, maybe the relationship between the two, I think it’s working now
I remember there were a lot of different good ways of developing a dialogue with curators
It’s really exciting.
When you have some time and feedback to the curator
But that’s the hardest thing to get from a curator.
Sometimes they’re really busy running from one show to another.
It’s not easy to have that personal time to give feedback and talk.
So, I prefer to talk about recent commissions
I was going to do a commission for a car repair shop in Moscow.
And then I suddenly found a beautiful, really great Takashi Murakami exhibition
He’s an artist that, personally, I’m not very interested in
But in terms of the exhibition, it was a very good exhibition
because the curators put his work in the context of that
everything from cartoons and fictional myths in the history of image culture gives a lot of content
with a lot of meaning or a mapping of politics
and it becomes a new perception that the artist is really open to
I think that’s what I really wanted from the curators
when they celebrate the work of the artist. Especially in contextualizing the work
because sometimes in this world where there’s globalization
you have a fragment, and yet you don’t have a full experience of that
Especially at art fairs, sometimes it’s kind of like a parking lot
You don’t know where your level is, where the city is, where you are
It’s a very global, abstract space
I think the new scene is important because it can save the events that are happening around these works

subtitle 4
This is a topic that we discussed earlier at lunch
That’s the difference between a collection in the private sense and a collection that becomes a museum
It’s something that’s meant to be public-oriented, educational and historical
What role does a smaller collecting space play in that ecosystem?
Do you see the value of such a franchise market?
Or do you think private collecting should be based on a more institutional public position?
Does anyone want to say something?
I think even commercial galleries have done good shows
just like the great institutional shows
So it becomes hard to distinguish
What I mean by that is
There’s no doubt that the great old museums will always be the great traditional museums
both in terms of collections and in terms of history
I think in all of that, I think we need to take into account social media as well
I don’t know why, but it needs to be included in our considerations
I was thinking, I was basically thinking about
Analia was talking about the Hammer Museum
It’s kind of a small, smaller institution
Similar to the showroom in London
The showroom again is a small, you know, and the Tate and so on
So in this smaller scale
so it’s very important to have young artists in these smaller, basic institutions
It’s very important to have young artists in these smaller, basic institutions to build a relationship.
And again, I’m not suggesting that
I don’t think that private collections should occupy this position
but I think it’s cross-infection. It’s good, you know, it’s positive
Beyond that
I think culture is supported and institutions are growing, which is positive
I mean, culture is also becoming a currency
More than a commodity
So, the biggest cultural commodity is the Western cultural commodity
Again, I’m going to vouch for that again by saying ……
I mean, I’m being too vague. I’m talking about Africa, which is a very big continent.
But I think …… I have a very small relationship with Africa.
But I’m just thinking, I’m thinking about the future and how there could be a
how one can move forward from a kind of modernist shadow
And that shadow is also a Western shadow.
Even modernism sort of started in Africa.
That’s what I mean by that.
I mean, I could be totally wrong.
I just think there’s so much room there, you know.
It’s a completely unknown space.
So, it’s like I’m dreaming there. Yeah.
How much cultural background do you think it takes to keep going?
When you’re doing an exhibition in a place like Shanghai
How much do you want to showcase your practice, your work
How much do you want to speak about
The educational, historical, regional, linguistic context combined with you.
Do you feel that you represent something bigger and broader?

Saban:
Yes, that’s a good question. For me context means everything.
I mean, just like art, as an artist, if you show the wrong context
basically the work could be full of depth
or it could be meaningless.
And it all depends on the context
I think education is very important
I think the reason I feel so excited about being here is because of the context
because you feel like you’re part of something bigger than this institution.
You’re having a conversation with China
and not in isolation.
I thought about the questions I had before
and thought a lot about my relationship with collectors.
I think the relationship between the artist and the collector is very delicate
Because on the one hand you don’t want to do anything that has to do with commerce.
You want to keep it pure, you want your work to be shown only in galleries.
It’s the highest honor in your eyes.
But on the other hand, we need them a lot
Because otherwise the studio would basically go out of business.
You know, you have to ……
Of course, you can always make money by working this way…
But you’re going to have a little bit of pain.
You have to compromise your time, and it’s complicated.
On the other hand, I’ve learned a lot from collectors.
They have a better understanding of what’s going on and they tell me who to focus on.
Collecting, it’s an extremely difficult thing to do
They have to take care of it and take care of the insurance.
They have to do a lot of that.
It’s to keep their collection going and it’s a lot of work
I really need them so that we can form an ecosystem to survive
Anyway, back to the question, we need each other a lot.
But if the collection is completely isolated from the academic dialogue
then it becomes painful
It becomes a little bit isolated and really painful.
On the one hand, you need these people who have a vision
They make things happen
On the other hand, because it’s in isolation, it gets lost
So the content of the collection is also important
So, engaging with more historically significant academic institutions
It’s very, very important, and it’s hard to balance
I’ve seen that in some cities. I think it’s really happening
There are really big collectors in the city, like Dallas
But all the collectors are part of the museum
They all donate their work to museums, and they’re really working with museums
In other cities, their collections are isolated
I think the dialogue has become a little weak and compromised
Miami, for example.
Well, there are institutions in Miami.
I mean, Miami has a number of galleries
Like I said earlier, like
The growth and expansion of private institutions, foundations
I mean, maybe it’s gradual
I mean, you know, like I said about MoMA, it’s a private museum.
MoMA is the largest private museum in the world.
It’s a respected institution, because, of course.
It’s well established enough to employ decent professional curatorial researchers, all of whom have PhDs.
Of course, it’s got a lot of scandals.
And then, the Tate Britain came along.
I mean, the Tate Contemporary, at least, was a new institution.
But of course, it’s a testament to the fact that it’s in London.
It’s part of the historical trajectory.
So, I’m very, I’m betting on these new institutions.
They have a lot of potential
Or become very good institutions in the future.
You know, we’re contemporary artists.
I guess I’m also skeptical of history.
You know, history can’t be completely objective.
So I wouldn’t say that because it’s in the book, that’s how history is.
The Bible, for example, and so on and so forth
I think: as an artist, I should question everything
Just like a scientist. One must question, not take everything for granted
A respected museum curator …… has to act like a doctor…
I mean, I’m just a little jaded
I was wondering.
What kind of exhibition or institution do you think would be considered respectable?
And by “respectable” I don’t mean like an opulent palace.
But as an artist
What is so serious that you want to take a serious look at it?
What are the criteria that you see when these projects appear?
I’m very open-minded. Personally, I’m really open-minded
So I’m always thinking about engaging with institutions to work with
This institution tells me what kind of people are involved in that institution
So, names aside
I recently went to the Kunsthalle in Munich
Historically it’s been a very controversial institution
But now it’s 2017…
Three years ago, I met Okwui Enwezor (curator) for the first time
He was the director of the Art House Gallery, and from then on
We started sharing, discussing, studio visits together
Eventually I had a solo exhibition with him at the Art House
I’ve been involved for several years now
The institution here for me is Enwezor personally
He’s having a conversation.
The subject is the obvious dilemma of contemporary life.
The problem is that it’s always confined to a specific time.
So institutions are always changing.
That’s why I think that I shouldn’t assume
Because there is a certain time in the history museum
A lot of paintings, sculptures, and installations
So I should be a part of it.
And I have a lot of confidence in the young curators
I’ve worked with them all, or worked with them.
Because they’re going to be, I guess, “contemporaries” with me, aren’t they?
I mean, that’s my definition of an institution
I’m sorry, I don’t totally agree with what you’re saying
You said an institution is like a person, it has a name, it has a family, it has personal preferences
I just enjoy a feeling – but when you see an exhibition in a gallery
what the specific works are, what series they are, who the visitors are.
You don’t need to know these things
But you can refer to the preferences of Okwui Enwezor (the curator)
or the director or curator who piqued your curiosity
You follow these clues, and you will know a lot about the institution
Because when you keep talking to it in the months afterwards
And then you watch these projects for years afterwards.
But on the other hand, for example, I really respect the structure of the Tate Contemporary staff.
It’s got curators from Latin America
It’s got curators from Latin America, it’s got curators from Africa, it’s got curators from different parts of the world.
One person is responsible for the team and also for the economic flow
There are other people who are in charge of different areas in different contexts
It’s very democratic, not to say Pearl, but a more diverse structure, and I respect that
It doesn’t always work
because it can easily become bureaucratic and snobbish
People who can participate, if not
Maybe you can see that some things are politically correct
But I prefer the kind of people who can give me taste
For example, I’m a curator and I want this, so I’ll go with that
You can decide if you like it or not
But I personally prefer the kind of personality that comes before the institution
I would like to say that an exhibition that I like very much
It’s an exhibition that I’m studying right now.
It’s called “Pacific Standard Time”…
I feel like I’m just talking about Los Angeles.
But it’s my hometown, and it’s a place that I’ve learned a lot about.
But “Pacific Standard Time,” it’s on view in Los Angeles right now.
It’s sponsored by the Getty Museum.
In terms of the exhibition, it’s kind of a useful thing because…
I mean, it’s really, like, Latin American art doesn’t basically
Everyone…you know
A lot of countries have been in exile for a while
because of government dictatorships
I mean, the event was somewhat lost
The archives were never officially created
Meaning, just because of regional politics
Everything was a little bit, because of regional politics
disoriented and confused, and it was violent. It’s like the Getty Museum.
It’s also like, it’s private in a way
And then it became an educational institution.
It spreads the money effectively to all the galleries in Los Angeles.
And then they opened 80 different exhibitions based on Latin America.
They gave all the curators a chance to come up with their own issues.
I was very worried at first.
Because I used to say, “How are you going to define Latin America again?”
I was worried that they would make some kind of vague assumptions.
But in the end, I mean, the exhibition was very useful in essence.
They focus on very specific topics, like Brazil, Argentina
Focusing on very small conversations, or a specific artist
I think they started to dig deeper
They didn’t try to generalize what Latin America is
Or they don’t want to just define it
That’s where it’s becoming more and more interesting
I think it’s a very good exhibition for me.
I mean, after seeing this exhibition
I did learn something, I understood the context, and even had a hint of anticipation to learn more
I think it’s interesting to do an exhibition like this
Because it’s like an extension of Latin America or other different regions
Because everything is integrated
I always worry about these invitations about Mexican art
or invitations to women’s art, or African-American art
Because at the end of the day, it’s a cliché – what kind of group is this group of people?
It’s like they’re all homogeneous, they’re all integrated…
I can’t, I’m sorry.
I’m really worried.
But I think they’re doing a great job.
In a way, I’m happy to describe the Latinos that are now
I think it’s crazy, because if you think
this is part of what we, the Mexican generation, have decided, like
we’re trying really hard to avoid this nationalism
or a kind of divide that separates us into Latinos or Mexicans
We start with our food, our everyday objects, our cars, our clothes
Some of it is Taiwanese, some of it is European
American, or Mexican, etc.
I think it’s important to understand that
that this is a time of globalization
We are completely global.
Do you have anything to add?
I’m going to read a quick quote that indirectly refers to what I just said
“John Paul Getty was an American industrialist
He founded the Getty Oil Company
In 1957, Fortune magazine named him the richest American
In 1966, the Guinness Book of World Records named him the richest citizen in the world
His total assets are approximately $120 billion
In about 2016, that number was just under $7 billion, far less than $9 billion
That’s what I’m talking about, Getty, you know
Now there’s obviously a respected image and sponsors
They’re in Latin America, Los Angeles, et cetera
And what they think of collectors, individuals or private institutions
And maybe now we can expect to see
A similar story, only in an Asian context
You know, especially the rumored China
It’s like a conversation in context
So I’m not saying, I’m not referring to anyone in particular
I’m saying
You know, it could be 20 years now, 30 years from now
That’s probably what I’m saying
I’m not interested in looking back and romanticizing the cultural system
It’s out there, we’re the lucky ones, we have a global quality and ability
But how can we
Maybe we let go a little bit and bet on what hasn’t happened yet
Maybe that’s why we’re here today
That’s why we’re here, and many of us have nothing to do with this country
But we’re building a relationship
to Asians, to Chinese collectors, to curators, to educators
I think it’s time to
to have a deeper, closer relationship with a continent like Africa
Africa is a continent that through commerce and trade
It has a very strong relationship with China
Maybe next year there might be more places like Africa
I would say, just like one of the reasons I love living in Los Angeles is
The Getty Museum has a superb art library
It’s a research institution, and it collects mostly archives from all over the world.
Artist archives, and basically when you go to these special exhibitions
You can also see what Mrs. Hunter (a self-taught painter) ate for lunch
because you can see his diary.
Or you can see everything that’s been archived by Szeemann now.
The place is the size of a warehouse, and they bought that space just to archive everything that he’s archived.
I think it’s pretty amazing.
I think it’s one of my favorite places in Los Angeles, the research library
Even when I went to New York, I lived in New York for three years
When I wanted to write a paper, I thought
Oh, this is New York, then I should have as many resources
because it’s Manhattan, right?
At the end of the day, there’s no place like the Getty in New York for people to do research
I mean, either you’re still in college or you’re working at a university
As a student, for example, then you have special access to research materials
Or you have to go to the MoMA library, but it’s only open from 9:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m.
And at the Getty Museum, it’s open from 7am to 11pm
Or was it 7am to 9pm or 11pm, I don’t remember, but it was like open all day
I had access to a lot of materials
like an unlimited number of books.
At MoMA, there’s a limited number of books
And I had to make an appointment, I couldn’t write a paper
So I ended up just buying the book, but it was really hard to write a paper
I remember this morning, I read a story about a Chinese artist
I’m not going to say the name, just a brief description of what happened to him
He said he had to take a 45-minute train ride to the library
His professor simply said, “You should go to the art library, it’s 45 minutes away.
In the library, he saw de Guing for the first time.
I was like, “Wow, this place is so big!
I thought, if there was a Shanghai museum
I thought, if we could have a Shanghai museum, we could have a great research library, not just of Western art, of course.
but really to capture what’s going on, like you said, in Africa, in China, in all of Asia
Because I came here (to China) to do research
I’m an artist, but here I want to be a student, so I want to see more and study more
I have the same expectations for art institutions
If I see a work by Lee Hildenstein (American Abstract Expressionist) here
I would probably just ignore it
Because I really want to see something that I haven’t seen before.
I want to learn about Malaysian art, I want to learn about contemporary art from around the world
in Australia, Africa (art), like you said
I mean, it’s a great opportunity for China
I think it’s really sad in the Western world
I mean, in the whole education that I received
I’ve only had one course on contemporary Asian art
And there was no Latin American art history (course)
And this was at UCLA, at such a fine and prestigious university
Most of the classes were based on Western art, and eventually you realize how ignorant and uninformed you are
I didn’t realize until now that the more you travel
the more you discover the world and realize that you know so little                                                                I wanted to focus on education, and they were right.
We talked a lot about the Getty Museum and the Pacific Standard Time exhibition, a brief commercial interlude
The Fall/Winter 2017 issue of Art World did a feature on the Pacific Standard Time project
The project focused on Asian artists and exhibitions that took place at Latin American exhibition centers this year
For example, one exhibition was about the relationship between Mexican and Chinese artists
One was about the Chinese diaspora in the Caribbean
Another is about the Japanese diaspora in Brazil
There are very interesting relationships between all of these, and they are well worth reading
The library is once again the main character, accompanied by interesting new things
Moving on
The other thing we’ve been talking about is the gallery, so I’m curious
What do you think of your gallery
You’ve been working with some of the best galleries in the world
Because galleries are actually more than just business.
They’re a cultural institution in their own right
How do you see them working with private museums or new museums?
What do you envision as the best way for them to support you?
Well, I think talking about before, about nationalism, or ethnic communities
It’s interesting because the museums are kind of like a group of people
They move from one place to another
In a way, the new identity doesn’t come from this country, it comes from the gallery
It’s interesting because sometimes galleries have their specific private clients or museum clients
Of course what’s interesting is not the nice aspect
Because while I think museums should be, or I would like to be
be more open to individuals, individual artists
and not just to large institutions (open)
Because after many years, they start to create client relationships from the client.
I think it’s important when galleries support this timing
Because museums sometimes need more time and energy
If they want to collect an artist or another artist
It’s an investment for the gallery and it’s important for them to work with them as an artist
There’s an opportunity to get support
There’s this opportunity to be part of not only a private collection, but a public museum
I’m sorry, can we stop this guy?
He’s disrupting the conversation
I think it’s too loud
Maybe he should stop this?
He’s moving the whole thing around.
No, the gallery is very important. I mean, the gallery, they’re the pioneers.
They are… – What are they?
They’re the ecosystem. They’re on the front lines.
I mean, obviously they support the artists
But they’re also all somewhat contradictory businesses, aren’t they?
Because in many ways, they deal in a particular way
It has to do with trust and interpersonal relationships with collectors and so on
At the same time, they also take the risk of supporting the artist’s ideas and producing the work
So they are a very important platform
They help shape a lot of the forms, shapes, sizes and qualities that they’re shaping
I think they’re going through a very interesting period
I mean, maybe Damian has been talking about this idea of expansion
Or a gallery that transcends borders
It’s an institution that has its own personality
I think it’s an interesting microbe
It’s as if the gallery is showing artists from different places and cultures
I think that’s the essence of culture: cross-pollination
So I think the gallery.
I don’t want to talk about it and say commercial this and commercial that
But I think the gallery is probably one of the most perfect models of the capitalist period
When money was necessary for creativity.
So I think galleries are great
As an international network, there was a tension between galleries
These institutions are rooted, but they’re also open
Even museums are not too international
You wouldn’t expect to see blue-chip American artists in a major museum or gallery in Shanghai
It’s not interesting to you, but they’re for the people who live here
They don’t have the opportunity to visit MoMA (Museum of Contemporary Art in New York) on a regular basis
Of course, without that, we wouldn’t have all of you here
Except for the art fair, it’s a whole other ballgame
So, what does a dream museum look like?
How deeply rooted is it in the society around it, in its current surroundings?
How connected is it to the cross-national curators that you are in?
How much is it connected to the collecting giants, to the galleries, to the art fairs?
Well, I was thinking, when you talk about this
What I really want is, as a visitor, not even as an artist
This experience about open spaces
You can narrate, you can freely interpret, think and create a space
Although the daily anxiety of living an efficient life can make this thing inefficient instead
It’s more like a place to meditate, get ideas, explore and share
In a way, it’s a space for community
I don’t think capitalism does that very often
And it’s crazy what happens in art, because if that’s done
If substitutes also become a source of exchange
And that source is economically speaking an important financial participation that is the basis for the operation of art
But I think the ultimate principle is to create a community in the museum
in some way to create a free space
Would that be a community? And how grounded would it be?
As an artist, do you want to visit artists on the other side of the world as part of a community?
Or do you think you should just stay in your own community?
In my opinion, if the museum should have some focus on the local base
Because when you are strict about every little detail of the work
when you see the microcosm of industry in this context
It’s very important and interesting to see how the audience reacts to that.
Or when you’re talking about a political system or in a dialogue of conversation, it’s in a specific context
It’s very important in a particular museum and in a particular local context
I think that global exhibitions that relocate from around the world
can always be understood from three different perspectives – the language, image, political reference or rather cultural reference, which are all completely different
I think (it) should be local, or must be local
Yes, it’s a difficult question to answer
I’ve been thinking about this question and it’s hard to answer
I go back to Lichtenstein (a contemporary American artist), who I think can be seen as a balance
or how much I wish contemporary China
Of course I believe there will be, I hope there will be such a balance
I still like to see Lichtenstein’s work everywhere.
But, you know what I mean.
But, I mean, I think about what art means to me
and why I’m grateful to be a part of it, because it’s a language that transcends language

Feng Xue:
This is very important to me.
I can be here and show my work in Joe Space
Although we don’t speak the same language, I don’t speak Chinese, he (Qiao Zhibing) doesn’t speak English
we can still have a very deep communication
I think that’s the most basic and important thing for me
It makes me sure that what I do every day, that’s why I can not care
That’s why I don’t mind a lot of the bad things that happen in the art world
Because when the day is over, that’s what inspires me to keep going –
A communication that goes beyond words
A kind of subconscious communication
In a way, we try to define it, we try to describe it
But at the end of the day there are no words.
It’s more like letting your body process the perception of the art object
So it’s very, very important to me
I would think about dialogue, I hate labels
Like, I think museums should challenge labels.
I hate the idea of a “women’s art show.”
Like, whenever I’m invited to an art show that’s only women.
I really have a problem with that.
So I want to be a woman, I want to be whoever I want to be, I want to have that conversation
I think museums should challenge that dialogue and should…
I think the way to explain the lack of labels is through education
like a deeper understanding of the concept
I do like museums that have a good education department
I like museums that have kids and schools visiting every day, because that’s the future.
Because that’s the future
And those kids grow up very fast, and I think that’s something that I talked to Qiao about about the oil cans
I said, (inaudible 01:02:42) touching very young kids, I’m proud of that.
My little girl just wanted to go to one of those big art museums
She’s 21 months old and she wants this and I’m just so happy (inaudible 01:02:57)
So they’re interested, with curiosity, and cause a desire to learn
So I’m really focused on education that goes beyond language
That’s my focus.
Go ahead.
I’m just thinking about the workers
The guys who work there
I’m kind of sad because I’ve never had a relationship with those workers and us
I mean, that really kind of sums everything up, doesn’t it?
This view of neoliberals and locals being left behind
Maybe you know, in a way, that’s how we are
I’m in Shanghai right now, and then I’m going to see you guys in New York next week, etc.
But in the end, the individual can’t have that lifestyle or that movement, and that’s not part of the conversation
I don’t have the answers.
But I think it’s really approaching the self
All of this is global. Especially in…
That’s why from the beginning I said I wasn’t interested in art
I think most art is a scam.
Outside of art is culture. I think culture exists.
It’s like bees.
cross-pollination and people meeting, and I think that’s important
This happens in many ways, not just through art
I think music is probably more successful
I think it’s, I don’t want to assume that art is everything, that would be a lie to you guys
That’s my contribution. I have nothing to say.
Do you appreciate creating a community museum outside of or even above the arts?
When there’s a place where music is performed
A real community center or something like that, a nursery
does that impress you when you think about institutions, or think that’s a completely different thing?
I haven’t seen that happen.
It’s pretty routine. Because you know
institutions are burdened with bureaucracy and financing
especially in the West…not so much in the US
because they’re all private institutions, but I think mainly in Europe
institutions are burdened with raising capital
So for me, I’ve lived in Europe for a long time
So I wanted to challenge or think
Even before you build an institution
I want to think about fundraising and the importance of fundraising.
Because I don’t think museums in Europe have found an interesting solution
simply because fundraising becomes a kind of priority that needs to be given
So, before you think about these things
you can hardly think about content and community
For example, you know the Tate tried to get around that through segregation.
You’re from Latin America, these are the people who support Latin America, here’s a curator
You’re from the Middle East, doing the same thing, and so on
But in terms of planning, it’s very poor
So I think it’s flawed
That to me is one of the issues that these institutions should address
Maybe this decision really needs to come from the government
In the United States, it’s worse and it’s problematic
because ultimately private individuals own the museum
But I think the capital is really all there
It’s a very complicated issue
So I still feel like I haven’t solved it
I’m still thinking about it
Let’s do it again in 18 months                                                                                                                                    Yes
I’d like to save a few minutes to answer questions
But if you have closing statements that you want to make, or anything else
I’d like to briefly mention the issue of entertainment
and why it’s become a competitor to the museum
and some of the things that have happened recently in Los Angeles and also in
I think in San Francisco and in London, which we mentioned briefly at this noon
about the Museum of Ice Cream.
On this Museum of Ice Cream, let’s look at the tickets, which are unbelievable
I said, “No, please check it again, check it again.”
Because I just couldn’t believe that just the admission price was $38
You know, and people sometimes complain about having to pay $5 to go to the Museum of Modern Art
Or the Museum of Contemporary Art in Los Angeles, or something like that
And the Museum of Ice Cream is $38 and it’s all sold out.
Some of you may not know about the Museum of Ice Cream.
I’ve never been there, but it’s basically a place where you can go and take selfies.
It doesn’t make sense, in a way, it’s like a sign that sets
And you can take a picture of yourself through the mist in the air
Take some pictures of yourself and post them on Instagram
It’s horrifying that this has turned into a real museum
Because it’s …… you know, what does that really mean?
So I think public engagement and the emphasis on education should be remembered
Culture can please their minds in a more far-reaching way
And this desire to cultivate their intelligence is vital
It’s vital to cultivate your own
I see that here. I see it in this place in Shanghai, it’s fun, maybe go skating or biking or something
Maybe go skating or biking or something
But you guys said, wait, what’s going on here
So I think that this trip is really exciting
because it can be very engaging and visually very interesting
But you also get to be exposed to real culture
I think for museums, it’s something that we have to think about very carefully
Because there are all kinds of other “viruses”, “museum viruses” that are developing
that we have to be careful about and deal with.
Yeah, but that seems very selective.
I mean, it’s like saying, what’s wrong with selfies and ice cream?
What’s wrong with that?
What’s wrong with selfies and ice cream?
There’s nothing wrong with selfies and ice cream.
It’s wrong when people stop going to other museums
Yeah, but you know, I think for me, the problem is this
We have this assumption that cultures in multicultural contexts
Multicultural culture exists in museums
in contemporary art museums or history museums
I mean, maybe that’s not the case
Maybe, when can we assume that a museum is a densely populated place?
A museum has never been a densely populated place. Museums, especially ……
I mean, in Mexico it’s different
I think Mexico is full of museums.
The impression of museums has been long embedded in people’s minds
I think it may also be due to Mexico’s socialist history
But this museum or art museum, I mean
In the West, I’m also thinking about London …… museums became very popular
because they became free and the content was influenced
So they also became entertainment
So they became a place of entertainment
This happened in the 90s
So, from my personal point of view
I’m not going to condemn what seems to be a large population
I mean, maybe we should pay attention, why are they doing this?
I mean, who are we, are we, are we on a higher moral plane to say
that we’re in a better intellectual space and therefore they have to pay attention to us?
It could be the other way around. I mean, maybe we are where we are and that’s it
You know the world is interested in doing other things
I guess I’m talking about how I feel inside
I mean, it’s true, like if you go to a museum of ice cream and you spend $38 on admission, it’s true
I mean, I think it’s just my selfish desire to share my personal experience, my personal desire for another human being, that’s true
I mean, but I don’t think that, you know, I’m on this side, so I’ll fight for that in a way
I mean, I don’t want a little kid to be exposed to just an ice cream museum.
You know, what I mean by that.
Like I still think art is valuable, I really do.
I mean, it’s true, sometimes it sounds like a scam, but sometimes it doesn’t
At least it’s worth it to give him a chance
I’m just worried that, let’s put it this way, the kid doesn’t even have a chance because we’re complaining about paying $5
Then we went to the ice cream museum and we paid $40
It’s kind of like a problem
So help the public get involved at least give this person a chance
At least go and experience it
And then you can decide if it’s worth a visit
No, no, I agree with you, I don’t disagree with you, I never went to a museum when I was a kid
I never went to a museum when I was a kid
I’m just saying, like I said before, culture is everywhere.
The cross contagion of culture is everywhere
I’m not saying that because, you know, this church is a contemporary art church or a history church
So this is the only place where I can be a highly sane individual
Yes, it’s a possibility, and it’s a possibility that I embrace
I just don’t agree, just personally I don’t agree with the assumption that this is a populist institution and it’s not worth the time
I think everyone and everything is…that’s why we live in such a place of contradictions
Contradictions are important, we are contradictory
We are all contradictory creatures
That’s what I advocate, when I feel like it gets a little fascist, like, no, that’s the only way to go
Let’s be a little more inclusive
I think there’s a fear
I think we’re all afraid, I think we’re all afraid that this ice cream museum is really more interesting than art
I think there’s a part of us that just wants to roll around in the spray and think, this is why we feel the need to compete with that and to be entertaining as a fun place to be, like a social place
I think that’s how people would see it, right?
Like, for example, they come to a museum and then there’s a ping pong table
I have to say, I mean, we enjoyed playing ping pong
But, at least you’ll go to the exhibit later
If it gets you an extra hour in the museum, then why not?
Yeah, and then there are great restaurants in the museum, anyway, you know, it’s cool
Maybe you go get a cup of coffee and then go see Joe
I mean, yeah, but, it’s true, we should ask ourselves that question
Can we answer the question now?
Is anybody’s stuff burning, please?
Thank you for the presentation. I have a question.
You talked at length about context and the importance of it providing context to the gallery
and the fact that at the end of an exhibition, visitors can leave with valuable knowledge
But many curators believe that context is didactic
How would you feel as an artist, when a curator wants to put on an exhibition, that it should be more practical than gaining knowledge.
I’d like to hear your point of view.
Thank you, that’s a good question
But could you please give me an example so that I can understand it better
Okay, for example, when I interviewed
Biennale 2014, he thought that providing the audience with too much information
is just filling the audience with information
So he really should learn to simplify the information very much
I spent three months interviewing a lot of visitors, and many of them
The first answer was “I don’t understand”, meaning, I don’t understand it at all
So as an artist, if you work with a curator like that
He is convinced that if you provide too much context
You spend so much time talking about contextual information, you’re filling the audience in.
I’d like to hear your opinion as an artist who insists on “context”
That’s a good question, and I wish I had an answer, because it’s a really deep question.
I think that when I say “context”
I’m not talking about more of a pedantic message.
When I say “context,” I’m talking about the location of the show.
Simply put, let’s say I have some concrete works, okay?
I feel that if they are placed in a particular location, they can be interpreted as art.
Likewise, if they were placed in a less artistic place, they would be a pile of concrete.
That’s the extension of what I mean by “context”.
It’s not a pedantic term.
And I think that’s a good question, I do enjoy those real “exhibitions.”
I walk in and there’s no labels.
Sometimes I do enjoy it more.
Because it makes your senses lead you back to the opposite of your reason.
So I agree with you, I think it’s really profound.
The meaning does change depending on where it’s shown.
Like in Latin America, or in Africa, like he said.
You know, that’s what it’s about.
So it’s really, it’s really about that, but it’s more profound than anything else.
That’s a really good question, and it’s something to think about all the time.
Thank you. Any other questions?
Hey, you said earlier that people don’t want to go
People would rather go to a gallery or an ice cream museum than an art museum.
Do you think it’s because of the elitist nature of galleries?
When you were young, you loved music and everybody could get lost in it.
But when you were younger, you didn’t know anything about art and you thought it was a dead end
When you’re older, you still don’t understand art and you don’t go to museums anymore
So it’s a problem for everybody
Do you think art museums and galleries are somewhat elitist? And if that’s the crux of it
Why can’t they be open to everybody?
I would say, I’m an artist, I go to galleries and I go to galleries
I started doing this, maybe, you know? The first time I went to a gallery
I was in the East End of London when I was 18.
I guess I’m kind of old, aren’t I?
And I was living in London, which is obviously a very cultural city
And throughout the late ’90s
I was immersed in such a strong and important artistic atmosphere, and I was unaware of it
So, I mean, of course, that’s not to deny the elitist nature of the art world.
It is in fact an elitist field, and it has to be.
You know, galleries can get a little stale when they have to accommodate popular culture
because they need to meet all kinds of standards
in exchange for monetary support from the government, etc.
But it also depends on the society you live in
I think, for example, in Germany, the German public
often requires schools to take children to art galleries
And in London, for policy reasons, they only started doing that in the late 90s
How about I summarize it this way, some things are changing
Some things …… and as I said before
Social networks are somehow the kind of thing that has been at the forefront
because, you know, Instagram and Facebook, those things
I guess, are very interactive and also build some sort of community
Even though I don’t agree with it
But that’s what it is, and, I think, it’s really hard to accept, very hard
And I think the ice cream museum is going to become jargon
But that’s what we should be thinking about
Why should the Museum of Ice Cream be more
popular, I think, even if you have to pay $40 for admission
I think that says something
That’s what we have to think about
Also, I don’t think museums have to accommodate the public
or lower the standards of the work in any way to attract people
I think that’s why, I mean
I think that’s why art education should start at an early age
You know, I think that’s another issue, especially in Europe
And in America, art education is not even in their teaching system, and I think that’s the bottom line of this issue
They don’t have art education in their schools, you know
Art education is completely banished from the syllabus, from the curriculum
I think it’s been banished from the whole Western world.
You know, in America, I don’t think they have that kind of education unless you go to a private school
So we’re going back to the idea of elitism
There’s no art education in public schools
I think that’s the problem
It’s just, it’s always hard to talk about elitism
It’s a big problem in Mexico, because literature is being elitist
A lot of people don’t read literature
They only go through a few years of elementary school, or even just start reading it and they give up
And it’s hard to denounce literature
Because people don’t read because they can’t read
So what’s the problem?
It’s more because of society
The political structure is more responsible for this than the art or the museums.
Because I think that in Mexico the museums are open to everyone, just like you said.
It costs a lot of money for the government to invest in supporting the museums.
Many painters and artists donate to museums for state support.
And people go to museums just to borrow a bathroom.
And it is difficult, or at least not easy, to condemn art or artists with elitism.
It’s a huge burden and responsibility
And I can explain it all
I’ll just briefly say that I remember going to a European theater once
I’m sorry, I don’t remember the city.
But it was an opera house, I mean, the opera house itself was very elitist in a way
Because just to understand an opera, you need a vast knowledge base
But this opera house was constantly projecting to the outside world what was happening inside the theater
Everything that’s happening is projected to the outside world
I’m like, this is a great way to share
So that whether you’re inside or outside, you can be part of it
But I also think it’s an evolving issue, and the real reason for it starts with the location
That’s my take on it.
Okay, any other questions?
If not, thank you all for your cooperation in this interview
I think it’s been really, really interesting.
And I hope we can continue to talk this afternoon.
I think I’m going to take a walk along the West Bund.
I think I’m going to walk along the West Bund and look at the long stretch of art museums in Shanghai through different eyes
and think about how we can improve
Rebuild or try to bring something new to these institutions
As a reminder, Damian’s work is in the
the ticket section of the West Bund
He also has an artist interview with Amy Lynn tomorrow
In our opinion, Lynn is a very good presenter, so it’s highly recommended to go see
Oscar’s painting show is in Nanjing, and it’s opening tomorrow as well
And of course, Analia’s show is right across the street at Joe Space
So don’t miss it!
We’ve been here at Project Space since 4:00
There’s a closing cocktail party at the Matt Sanders painting show
Enjoy the rest of the afternoon
Thank you for being here.
Thank you to the artists for taking the time to join us for this interview.
And of course, thank you very much to the entire team at Oil Can Art Center in Shanghai
It’s very impressive to be able to do this kind of work on the construction site of a new museum.
And we happen to be talking about building an art museum as well
Thank you to Mr. Qiao and his team.
We’re having a party there.
If you want to have a drink or a bite to eat
Just go over there, to our reception space
Thank you!
Feng Xue